Unlocking the World of Travel Rewards with Julian Kheel and Points Path

[00:00:01] Welcome to Business, Finance and Soul. My name is Shaun Enders and I'm a curious entrepreneur. I love exploring business, personal finance and consciousness. I'll jump around topics, offer my opinions and occasionally interview interesting people. Looking forward to going on this journey. Let's be curious together.

[00:00:30] Welcome back to Business, Finance and Soul. Today is a selfish treat for myself. I get the opportunity to sit down with Julian Kheel. He's the founder of Points Path. Julian has spent the last 15 years studying travel rewards programs. He was the editorial director at The Points Guy and was a senior editor at CNN covering travel rewards.

[00:00:51] He's really made it his mission to simplify and demystify the points and travel rewards space. Welcome, Julian. Appreciate your time.

[00:01:02] Thank you, Shaun. I'm excited to be here.

[00:01:04] Yeah, I, I, as I was looking at your experience and I just, I got excited because I don't think if I have to spend money on travel because I own a company, we, we really funnel all of our business expenses and personal expenses into one travel card.

[00:01:25] And, uh, we use that a lot for airfare. I have two kids, uh, super expensive just to go visit family back East, uh, let alone a European vacation or anything like that.

[00:01:36] So I hate spending money on just getting from point A to point B on airfare. And, uh, uh, one of the things that I was looking at your background, I go, man, you're going to be able to help me out.

[00:01:48] I know just through this interview. So I'm pumped to have you here. Um, I want to start with really the travel industry as a whole.

[00:01:58] Uh, I want to start there because I think it's a great place to, to understand, you know, is the system set up for us or are we being gained?

[00:02:08] And I think a lot of people, you know, get maybe a little hesitant to jump in because they're not sure. Is it gimmicky? Is this real? Who, what audiences is for?

[00:02:20] So I want to find out how does the airline industry and the hotel industry, how do they view the points and reward space as a whole?

[00:02:29] It is actually really fascinating, Sean, because over the decades since the first mileage program was introduced, it was really American Airlines who was the first major carrier to have, uh, a, a frequent flyer program.

[00:02:45] Uh, and, and that's been 40 years now. Uh, these programs have really evolved to the point that they are the most profitable, profitable portion of the airline in a lot of cases during the pandemic.

[00:03:01] When airlines obviously were in dire financial strits because nobody was flying and needed a government support and loans and things like that.

[00:03:10] The collateral that most of them put up against those loans was their frequent flyer program because that piece of the airline has become so valuable.

[00:03:20] An airline, in fact, like American at this point makes all of its money pretty much on the frequent flyer program and just also happens to fly people around.

[00:03:28] So the program, these programs are, are more valuable than people realize to the airlines.

[00:03:35] And therefore from a consumer standpoint, they have to maintain their value.

[00:03:42] The airlines must make people engaged in these programs or they lose their value and then the value of the entire airline collapses.

[00:03:48] So they've really, really become important.

[00:03:50] And the airlines are very cognizant of that.

[00:03:54] Now that isn't to say they don't still try and pull every dollar they can out of them.

[00:03:59] Of course they do.

[00:04:00] But in the old days where people probably thought of, uh, frequent flyer miles as something the airline hoped would just, you wouldn't use that.

[00:04:09] You'd get them and then they'd expire and, and you'd forget about them and the airline wouldn't have to pay anything.

[00:04:14] That is really no longer the case.

[00:04:17] The airline wants you to use your points and miles because the best way to encourage engagement in the program, which they need in order to make money is for you to have a successful redemption.

[00:04:28] That is by far in a way when people are, are interested in earning more miles when they successfully use their miles.

[00:04:35] So unlike the old days where there were probably all sorts of ways where, you know, oh, you don't, can't redeem them here or let them expire there.

[00:04:43] That's not really the game anymore from the airline standpoint.

[00:04:46] It really has changed the entire outlook on these programs.

[00:04:49] That's super interesting.

[00:04:50] I had wondered about that.

[00:04:52] I think most of us, you know, really think of this as, uh, you know, this begrudging journey that they go through.

[00:05:01] And I wasn't sure really where it started, if it was at the airline or if it was at, you know, credit cards of going, Hey, we've got to stimulate the consumer here.

[00:05:11] We've got to, you know, get them bought into this idea of, Hey, you're going to get some rewards here.

[00:05:17] And then they hope for the people that don't pay off their, their card at the end of the month, that there's going to be interest that they can collect.

[00:05:25] And, you know, the cycle continues.

[00:05:26] So they bait you with, you know, the rewards.

[00:05:29] And I wasn't sure if the airlines kind of went along with it.

[00:05:33] So was it the airlines that created their first rewards programs?

[00:05:37] Uh, it was American who started it and then the others kind of started falling in, in place.

[00:05:42] And then credit card companies started saying, Hey, we can do something here.

[00:05:47] How did they link up like that?

[00:05:49] That's exactly it.

[00:05:50] Right.

[00:05:50] So originally they started as a marketing piece of the piece of the marketing puzzle for airlines, right?

[00:05:56] Airlines.

[00:05:57] The biggest issue with airlines has always been since, since they were deregulated in the late seventies, that how do you compete with your other, with other carriers?

[00:06:06] Generally people book almost entirely based on two things.

[00:06:10] One is price, right?

[00:06:11] Who's got the cheapest fare to get from A to B and two convenience.

[00:06:15] Do I have to make a stop?

[00:06:17] Can you know, does it leave at the time I want to go?

[00:06:19] That sort of thing.

[00:06:21] Beyond that, it's really hard for airlines to differentiate themselves.

[00:06:25] You know, you can say, Oh, we have better seats.

[00:06:26] We have more leg room.

[00:06:28] And, and some of them do that, but people generally, when push comes to shove, they say they want those things.

[00:06:33] But when it comes to booking, they look for price and convenience.

[00:06:35] So the market, the frequent flyer programs were a way for airlines to try and encourage people to stick with one carrier, to stick with them, to be loyal to a carrier.

[00:06:46] That was the original plan.

[00:06:48] Now, eventually the credit card piece that came about, because as the credit card industry in the U S, which was roughly around the same time, maybe a little bit later, started to become ubiquitous where people were not paying with cash or check, but we're starting to pay with credit.

[00:07:03] The same thing happened.

[00:07:05] Banks said, well, how do we differentiate our product from another bank's product?

[00:07:09] And offering rewards to a consumer was the way they did that.

[00:07:13] Well, what kind of rewards can you offer?

[00:07:15] You can offer cash back and that a lot of cards do offer cash back, but that's pretty basic.

[00:07:21] Nothing wrong with cash back to be clear, but it's not always that exciting.

[00:07:25] The idea of free travel to a lot of people, it's a wish fulfillment.

[00:07:29] It gives people a reason to use that card to collect these points and miles that on paper are not worth anything.

[00:07:36] They're only worth something because the airline will give you free travel for it.

[00:07:40] So that's how the connection got made where credit card companies and airlines came together, said we can offer these rewards as part of our offering of the card.

[00:07:49] Consumers earn and everybody wins.

[00:07:51] The reason that airlines make so much money off these cars now is, of course, that when these banks partner up with the airlines, the airlines are selling their miles to the bank for the bank to then give them to their customers.

[00:08:04] And that's how a big chunk of that money, of that revenue is earned by banks paying the airlines, not just for the exclusivity of issuing their credit card or having access to their points, but they're literally paying them per point or mile for every one that they hand out to consumers.

[00:08:19] That's super interesting because, you know, for me, it doesn't always add up in terms of, man, how did they come up with the redemption value?

[00:08:34] And even with my own card, it kind of changes sometimes based on the airlines.

[00:08:39] And, you know, some of my points are worth a little bit less for these guys over the other ones.

[00:08:43] And so I knew that there's there's a scheme in there somewhere.

[00:08:47] I just couldn't think, you know, I don't know if I care completely, you know, but to your point, I'm looking for, you know, the least amount of points and the best routes.

[00:08:57] And for me, direct, you know, without a bunch of connections and things like this.

[00:09:02] And so it is convenience and price, as you alluded to earlier.

[00:09:07] One of the things that just recently we booked, you know, four tickets back east for next year.

[00:09:13] And this is through Alaska.

[00:09:14] They've got a great route now from San Diego to Boston.

[00:09:18] Four tickets.

[00:09:20] Great price in February over a vacation.

[00:09:23] If you go to Alaska direct, that direct flight right now will run you somewhere right about $1,300.

[00:09:32] My points card.

[00:09:33] Now, I use one which is not a lot of people talk about.

[00:09:36] It's through Wells Fargo.

[00:09:38] It's happened to be very competitive for me.

[00:09:41] And something I'm going to throw out there because I'm just curious how this works.

[00:09:45] Other people might have experienced this, too.

[00:09:47] That same trip costs 92,000 points through Wells Fargo.

[00:09:56] And for them, the fare is $940.

[00:10:03] So cheaper than the airline.

[00:10:05] You can't price match.

[00:10:06] The airline won't do that with like a point system.

[00:10:09] Is Wells Fargo at this point somehow buying those fares down?

[00:10:14] Is that what you're saying?

[00:10:15] And like they have a special agreement because anywhere else I would go, I'm not getting that same conversion rate.

[00:10:22] So essentially what they're doing is, hey, if you paid cash, it'd be more.

[00:10:25] But for your points, they're giving me like $1.3 or $1.4 to my $1 as opposed to if I was just spending cash.

[00:10:37] And if I got the cash back, it wouldn't be as valuable, which is why I like travel.

[00:10:40] Cash is kind of worthless in the world of credit card exchanges.

[00:10:44] Is what I'm seeing here kind of the game that goes on behind the scenes?

[00:10:50] So that's one piece of the game.

[00:10:51] Yes.

[00:10:52] And absolutely.

[00:10:52] That is not at all uncommon.

[00:10:55] That a bank will give you more value for your points and miles if you redeem them for travel versus if you just get cash back.

[00:11:04] Wells Fargo is, like you said, is an example.

[00:11:07] Chase has their Sapphire Preferred card.

[00:11:11] They advertise.

[00:11:11] You get $1.25 per point when you redeem them for travel.

[00:11:16] Chase Sapphire Reserve, you get $1.5 per point when you redeem them for travel.

[00:11:20] So, yes, that is very common.

[00:11:22] And in most cases, frankly, the bank is just eating the extra cost as part of their cost of doing business.

[00:11:28] What's interesting is a lot of people still don't redeem their points that way.

[00:11:32] They still go for cash back, which I always say, if you're going to get cash back, just get a cash back card.

[00:11:37] Don't get a travel card and then use your points for cash back.

[00:11:40] You're sort of losing the forest for the trees at that point.

[00:11:44] You're better off if you're going to get a travel card, use it for travel.

[00:11:47] So that is one way.

[00:11:49] There is some negotiation.

[00:11:51] There is some, you know, American Express in particular does have some better deals that they have negotiated with their partners such as Delta.

[00:12:01] But in most cases, it's a cost of doing business when people redeem their miles or points that way.

[00:12:07] The other piece of the game, though, and this is a smaller piece because it does take more time, but potentially a more lucrative piece is when you transfer your points to an airline program or a hotel program.

[00:12:22] So, for instance, Chase has partners with United Airlines, Southwest, Air Canada, British Airways.

[00:12:31] Amex has Delta as their partner, along with about 20 other hotels and airlines.

[00:12:36] Citibank has their set of partners, Capital One, and so on.

[00:12:39] And the reason that can be potentially a more lucrative way to redeem your points is that a lot of times those airline programs are offering fares that aren't specifically tied to the points value.

[00:12:53] The points value or the miles value may be more or less relative to the cash value.

[00:12:59] So, if you can catch it, especially in premium cabins like Business and First and especially internationally, where a ticket in cash might run for $5,000 or $7,000, but with points you can get it for 100,000 miles, let's just say, then you're really getting like $0.07 per point.

[00:13:19] Now, some people say, well, I would never spend $7,000 on that ticket, but I always say, well, if somebody gave you a Porsche, you wouldn't say, well, I wouldn't spend that money on the Porsche.

[00:13:28] It's still worth a Porsche.

[00:13:29] You know, it's still, that's what the value of that product is as far as what other people will pay for it.

[00:13:36] So, that is a way that you can really get outsized value for your bank points.

[00:13:41] The key is, though, you have to really understand what the value is there of the airline mile versus the cash fare when it makes sense to make that transfer and other times when the value isn't there and you should just book through the bank, like you said, and get the enhanced value there.

[00:13:58] I'd really like to up my game in this area and it's intimidating for, I think, you know, the average person because you hear about, you know, real points enthusiasts that have multiple cards open and they're transferring and, you know, it's gamified into where they really, really are enjoying the process of getting the deal.

[00:14:22] And I totally get that.

[00:14:23] I just, not everyone, especially if you're raising a family and you've got a busy job, has the excitement or the wherewithal to sit down and do that.

[00:14:33] One of the things that I was curious with, and we can build off this because I think your story is super interesting in where you've come from.

[00:14:41] You've been in this space, you know, really, since this became mainstream in terms of talking about points and accumulating and transferring all these different programs.

[00:14:54] Can you talk a little bit about how PointsPath was born?

[00:14:58] You really, I know I'm not going to go all the way back to your film days, but, you know, you came out of Syracuse and, you know, we're in the Hollywood space directing, you know, producing.

[00:15:16] And you've kind of always been a real creative.

[00:15:19] What was the springboard for you to say, hey, I want to run a company and, you know, I want it to be centered around my passion and I want to use tech to be able to get this out onto Google and everything else.

[00:15:33] Where did that all come from?

[00:15:35] How did you get to where you are right now?

[00:15:37] Yeah, it's fascinating the journey that life takes you, right?

[00:15:41] It is very much a winding road.

[00:15:44] And I don't think 20 years ago I would have envisioned myself being where I am.

[00:15:49] As you mentioned, I was working in Hollywood.

[00:15:51] I was writing.

[00:15:52] I was directing.

[00:15:53] I don't know that this is where I'd say, oh, 20 years from now you're going to be here.

[00:15:56] And yet I'm thrilled to be here.

[00:15:59] It's something I'm passionate about and it's something I love waking up in the morning.

[00:16:03] And I think that's what life is about.

[00:16:05] You only get one go around.

[00:16:06] So when you're doing something, be passionate.

[00:16:09] Make it something that you're passionate about.

[00:16:10] And don't waste time on things that you don't either have to do or that you don't love to do.

[00:16:17] Where I started on this journey, as you mentioned, I was doing television and film.

[00:16:22] And I actually worked for WWE, World Wrestling Entertainment, for a couple of years.

[00:16:26] This was 2009 and 2010.

[00:16:29] And as part of that, I was directing all the backstage segments for Monday Night Raw and Friday Night Smackdown.

[00:16:36] Those live shows that they do from arenas around the country and sometimes overseas.

[00:16:42] And as part of that job, I had to fly constantly.

[00:16:44] I was on the road every single week because they were doing this in a different city every week.

[00:16:50] We had two different cities every week that we would travel to.

[00:16:52] So I was flying back and forth from home to wherever we were landing.

[00:16:56] And so is the whole company.

[00:16:57] The entire, all the wrestlers, all the backstage crew, all the writers, all the directors, everybody, the producers are doing this same travel schedule.

[00:17:05] So as you might expect, when you're traveling that much, you very quickly learn about frequent flyer miles because it's part of what you're doing.

[00:17:14] And you say, well, I'm going to be doing all this flying.

[00:17:16] How do I take advantage of this system?

[00:17:18] So there was an interesting subculture there at WWE where everybody knew their frequent flyer programs.

[00:17:25] Everybody would go.

[00:17:26] You'd have a conversation with a wrestler.

[00:17:28] You'd say, you know, I'm thinking about going for American executive platinum status this year because Delta hasn't been treating me that well.

[00:17:34] Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:17:35] So everybody knew what they were talking about.

[00:17:37] Everybody knew how it all worked.

[00:17:39] So anyway, after I left WWE, I had all this knowledge about points and miles that I wanted to continue to use.

[00:17:50] Right.

[00:17:50] I wanted to be able to do something with it.

[00:17:53] And I had I was sort of getting to the end of my interest in television and film.

[00:17:59] I had been doing it for a long time and looking to maybe do something a little different.

[00:18:02] So I simply started writing for one of the blogs that covered points and miles.

[00:18:08] And again, this is about 15 years ago now.

[00:18:10] Just started writing once a week about points and miles and about different things and different angles on it.

[00:18:18] And using the skills I had learned from Hollywood, writing skills from there.

[00:18:23] And it became popular.

[00:18:25] And eventually I got picked up by a bigger blog.

[00:18:27] And then eventually, as you mentioned, I got picked up by the points guy to write for them.

[00:18:32] And I was there for a few years and rose there and eventually was the editorial director there and running the entire site.

[00:18:39] So it really was that journey there to get from, you know, just having this information, wanting some an outlet for it, if you will, to eventually running the site.

[00:18:51] That's sort of the granddaddy of all of it.

[00:18:54] And then from there, CNN came calling because they wanted to do an e-commerce venture when it came to travel and credit cards.

[00:19:04] There's been a real explosion of that in the last few years of huge companies like CNN, like CNBC, like Forbes, really expanding out their travel and travel rewards coverage.

[00:19:17] And that's all because of the credit cards angle.

[00:19:19] And there's a lot of money there, frankly.

[00:19:21] So I went over to CNN to create their division doing that.

[00:19:25] And I did that for a few years.

[00:19:27] So through it all, to get back to your original question of why points, Beth, as you already alluded to and as you mentioned, and as a lot of people, I think, realize, it's very complicated.

[00:19:38] Points and miles are very complicated.

[00:19:40] And some of that is by design.

[00:19:42] The airlines want to sort of obscure what the value of the points are.

[00:19:46] They don't necessarily want it to be obvious because then it would be very easy to sort of calculate if you're winning or losing.

[00:19:55] So they've made it a bit complicated.

[00:19:57] And so you really have to dig into it to understand it.

[00:20:00] And there's great resources like the points guy out there with lots of stories on how to do it.

[00:20:05] But it does require time.

[00:20:06] It takes a lot of time to dig through all that.

[00:20:09] It's not hours or days.

[00:20:10] It can be if you really want to get good at it.

[00:20:12] And so I wanted a way to be able to help people understand when they should use other miles and when they shouldn't without having to do all that.

[00:20:21] Because, like you said, people are busy.

[00:20:22] They don't have time to spend hours digging through a website.

[00:20:25] And that's where the idea of PointsPath came from.

[00:20:28] And for those who may not know what PointsPath is, it's a browser extension.

[00:20:31] You install it in Google Chrome or Microsoft Edge on your desktop or laptop.

[00:20:36] And then when you search with Google Flights, and Google Flights gives you all the cash prices for all the results from wherever you're searching, New York to LA or whatever it might be,

[00:20:45] we add in all the points prices for each of those individual airlines and then tell you for each flight which is the better deal.

[00:20:55] Should you use cash on that flight or should you use miles to get the best deal?

[00:20:59] So that way, you know, and this all happens in five, maybe seven seconds.

[00:21:02] So in that way, you get it, you look at it, and you say, okay, I have the answer.

[00:21:07] And that's what people tell us.

[00:21:09] They say, that's my favorite part about it is you just give me the answer and I don't have to think any further about it.

[00:21:14] Should I use my miles?

[00:21:15] Should I save my miles?

[00:21:16] That's really what it all stemmed from is how can I help people answer this question that they always have without them having to spend hours digging through a website?

[00:21:24] Yeah, this is why I was very excited to have you on because you really touch upon a couple key areas for me.

[00:21:31] Number one, you can, you know, and we'll get to some of the best hacks that you might have, you know, that the average listener can take away for their own life and their own travel and, you know,

[00:21:43] the fun that you can have by utilizing what you're already spending, you know, to maximize the rewards.

[00:21:50] So you bring a lot of value in that space, very tangible takeaways today.

[00:21:53] But also I think you're, you're a testament to really not having to have a perfect plan on how life and career is going to unfold.

[00:22:06] A lot of times, you know, there's, we want to draw this perfect line between, you know, action and reaction and cause and effect, you know, within our careers.

[00:22:17] Well, I don't want to do that because that might not lead me to this.

[00:22:20] And, you know, life would be pretty boring if we could, as, as mere mortals, you know, just identify and understand exactly how our journey would unfold.

[00:22:31] Right.

[00:22:32] And I love the fact that you got into something through one career path, you know, such as entertainment, like WWE and working with athletes.

[00:22:40] I mean, unless there's a private jet for, you know, all the athletes in that sport, people are traveling a ton in those spaces, especially, you know, when you've got to get around a country or, or, you know, even global events.

[00:22:55] And I had never even thought about, yeah, you've got all that support staff and, you know, all the administrative and operational talent that has to get from A to B.

[00:23:08] And you logged, how many miles did you log at the height?

[00:23:12] Yeah.

[00:23:13] In 2010, I flew button seat miles, as they like to say, 200,000 miles, over 200,000 miles in one year.

[00:23:21] Yeah.

[00:23:22] Yeah.

[00:23:22] Tremendous.

[00:23:22] Right.

[00:23:22] So, so, you know, that type of schedule taken advantage of even the most busiest CEOs, you know, that, that, that have to travel, you know, not on private jet are, are really in that same space of where they're gone, you know, 270, 300 days a year.

[00:23:40] Uh, you want to be able to take advantage of that.

[00:23:43] I love the fact though, that, that you leaned into that without knowing and it opened up this entire new path for you.

[00:23:52] Uh, yeah.

[00:23:54] When I, oh yeah.

[00:23:55] No, I was just going to say, Sean, to that point, I, cause I completely agree that you can't predict how your life is going to unfold and you're right.

[00:24:02] You can, you, it's, it's important to have a plan.

[00:24:04] There, it's good to have a plan, but you've got to be willing to replan.

[00:24:08] You've got to be able to go with the flow and change your, change your plan when facts on the ground change or when you're presented with an opportunity.

[00:24:16] Uh, you know, you do, I do honestly very much believe that you create your own luck and, and, and yes, yes.

[00:24:23] Luck is a thing.

[00:24:24] I'm not saying that there isn't good luck and bad luck, but when you have good luck, it's often because you're in the right space at the right time because you've made sure that you, you've been in that space.

[00:24:34] A hundred times.

[00:24:35] And so that one time that, that, that the luck actually struck, you were ready to go.

[00:24:40] You were ready to take advantage of that opportunity.

[00:24:41] And then on the flip side, and we were talking about this a little bit before we started recording, when bad things happen, when, when, when, and everyone, all of us have misfortune, all of us face headwinds at some point, how you take on that challenge and how you really, you know, say, all right, well, how, how do I take these lemons and make lemonade?

[00:25:00] How do I take advantage of this difficult situation?

[00:25:04] How do I turn it to my advantage?

[00:25:06] And yeah, there's going to be some work involved and there may be some pain involved too.

[00:25:10] Uh, and it's going to be difficult, but how can I get through this and come out not just whole on the other one, but, but even better on the other end.

[00:25:17] Yeah.

[00:25:18] And, and, and you really are a testament to that big pivot, but staying in the, in, in that similar space, which is cool because now you're running a company.

[00:25:27] Uh, you've got employees and, and responsibilities that are a little different than contributing, uh, on a, on a individual basis.

[00:25:37] Um, when you look at the points path and, and the, the company itself now is how, how many years old?

[00:25:44] Uh, we started in April, 2023.

[00:25:46] So it's really only about 18 months, 18 months.

[00:25:50] And then points path itself, the product didn't come out until just this past January.

[00:25:54] So that it hasn't even been out a year yet.

[00:25:56] That's pretty exciting.

[00:25:57] Uh, I, I, I love the space.

[00:25:59] I actually used it, uh, to take a look at, uh, you know, that same flight that I was talking about.

[00:26:05] I want to see how accurate it was.

[00:26:07] Uh, so I could try to call you out in person and, uh, turns out it's actually a really, really great product.

[00:26:13] It's spot on in terms of, uh, the points that I already knew, uh, and the value and really was, was super convenient.

[00:26:22] Very fast.

[00:26:24] Talk to me a little bit about, you know, when now I I'm an Alaska guy because I'm on the West coast.

[00:26:31] They're opening up, you know, some, some more convenient East coast pass to Florida and, uh, Boston, as I was mentioning, but they, they've always kind of been great, uh, up and down the West coast.

[00:26:43] And now over to Alaska, uh, or excuse me, to Hawaii.

[00:26:47] Um, what airlines, when we look at points and we look at, uh, uh, value, how do you rank them in terms of value and, uh, eagerness to, to, to play ball and attract the consumer?

[00:27:03] Yeah, we, so this is a common question that people have are because, so let's, first of all, make sure everybody understands points and miles from different airlines are worth different amounts.

[00:27:15] They are not all worth the same amount.

[00:27:17] And in fact, they can vary quite drastically across the board.

[00:27:20] When you get into hotel points, they really vary.

[00:27:24] You either are hotel chains like IHG, which has intercontinental and Kipton and, uh, holiday in the points there are probably worth half a cent a piece versus a hotel chain like Hyatt, where a lot of people feel the points are worth probably a cent and a half each.

[00:27:39] So you're talking about three times as much value there across two different hotel chains and the airlines, there's not quite as much variety, but it is still, it makes a difference.

[00:27:48] Uh, American miles are definitely worth more than Delta miles.

[00:27:52] If you just to throw out an example, um, to answer your question, a lot of sites sort of have a list of point valuations, which is their sort of educated guess estimate on what each airline or hotels points are worth at points path.

[00:28:08] We actually use the data to make that determination.

[00:28:11] And the way we do that is because we do have, uh, so many people using points path.

[00:28:16] We're approaching probably by the time this there's a, we'll probably be over 60,000, uh, installed users and they're doing anywhere between 15 to 30,000 searches every single day.

[00:28:27] Every time a user does a search and we show the points price next to the cash prices, we save a copy of those prices, not of the user's data, but of the prices from the airlines and we store it all.

[00:28:39] And then we can go back and analyze that data and look at all of the flights, say from Delta over the last 90 days, the points price versus the cash price and say, okay, well, what was for this particular flight, the price per point, which is simply taking the cash price, subtracting whatever taxes you'd pay.

[00:28:58] If you use points and then dividing it and you'd say, okay, well, this is how much value you're getting.

[00:29:03] If you used points instead of cash for this flight, taking every single Delta flight over the last 90 days, whether a user booked it or not, and coming up with a median value of saying, this is what the points were worth for the miles from Delta.

[00:29:16] In that case, that's how we determine what each set of miles is worth.

[00:29:20] Given all that data, I can tell you to answer your question.

[00:29:23] Alaska miles are the most valuable U S airline miles.

[00:29:28] Uh, and Alaska knows that.

[00:29:30] And they've, they've gone out of their way to maintain the value of their miles because again, they know it gives them as a smaller operation.

[00:29:38] They need some sort of an advantage and their mileage program is one of them.

[00:29:42] Uh, on the other end of the spectrum of the major U S carriers, Delta miles are generally worth their least.

[00:29:48] They're worth about 1.1 cents a piece roughly.

[00:29:52] Um, when you get into some of the lower cost carriers, there can be less value than that, but just talking about the majors.

[00:29:58] So, uh, and then everybody else falls basically in between those.

[00:30:02] And then there are international carriers as well.

[00:30:04] Uh, and those vary too.

[00:30:06] But if you're looking to collect miles, you might, and so you hear me say, all right, well,

[00:30:10] so should I collect Alaska miles?

[00:30:12] Yes.

[00:30:13] That, that would not be a bad thing.

[00:30:14] You say, well, I don't, I don't live anywhere where Alaska is.

[00:30:17] How do I collect Alaska miles?

[00:30:19] Well, there's a couple of ways.

[00:30:20] One, you can get an Alaska credit card.

[00:30:21] We collect Alaska miles two is you can get a card like the built rewards card, which is

[00:30:27] a, uh, a startup that issues a credit card that actually pays you rewards on rent.

[00:30:32] Uh, and it comes with no fees and it's actually a really great product.

[00:30:36] They transfer between Alaska and built.

[00:30:39] So then you could earn bill points and transfer them to Alaska.

[00:30:42] Now, of course the last question becomes, yeah, but if Alaska doesn't fly where I need

[00:30:46] to go, why am I collecting Alaska miles?

[00:30:49] And this is goes to a question you asked earlier of just some of the hacks, how this works.

[00:30:54] And one of the big hacks that a lot of people don't realize is taking advantage of airline

[00:30:59] partners.

[00:31:00] So almost every major airline is up in an alliance or a partnership with many other airlines,

[00:31:07] dozens of other airlines in the U S internationally and whatnot.

[00:31:10] Alaska is part of an alliance called the one world alliance.

[00:31:14] And in that alliance is other airlines like British airways, cafe, Pacific, Japan airlines

[00:31:21] and American airlines.

[00:31:23] So that means that yes, you can sometimes book American flights with your Alaska miles.

[00:31:31] And this is where points path is really.

[00:31:33] I'm very proud of what we do with points path because when you do a search in Google flights

[00:31:37] and American flight comes up, say you're looking at it, we'll show you not just what it costs

[00:31:42] in American miles, but if it's available with Alaska miles, what it costs in Alaska miles.

[00:31:48] And we'll still tell you which is the better deal, which one of those you should do.

[00:31:51] And we even show you all the different bank transfer partners that can transfer to Alaska

[00:31:56] or Delta or whatever it might be that you're looking at.

[00:31:58] So that's what I love about what we built is we really give you the full picture with just

[00:32:03] one glance so you can really get the answer.

[00:32:05] And that's why even collecting a currency like Alaska, even if you don't fly Alaska could

[00:32:09] be useful.

[00:32:10] You'd still want to look and say, well, do Alaska's partners fly places that I need to

[00:32:14] go?

[00:32:15] You still want to end up with miles that are useful, but that's a great example of how

[00:32:19] you can make your miles go further.

[00:32:21] Even if the airline that you've collected them with doesn't go where you need to go right

[00:32:24] then and there.

[00:32:25] Yeah, that's actually so that is a key hack right there is is learning.

[00:32:32] You hear it when you're in flight that, hey, we're a proud member of the One World Alliance.

[00:32:37] This obviously doesn't mean a lot if you don't understand how to take advantage of that.

[00:32:43] And it's kind of, you know, it's interesting.

[00:32:46] It's like, you know, I love Costco for booking rental cars.

[00:32:50] And they have, I think it's the kind of the big five.

[00:32:54] Three of them are owned by the same, you know, company.

[00:32:59] You wouldn't know that.

[00:33:00] But you do when you go to the counter and you see they all kind of work the same line sometimes.

[00:33:06] Right.

[00:33:07] Budget and Frifty is the same agent there.

[00:33:09] Right.

[00:33:09] Exactly.

[00:33:11] You see Alamo and Enterprise, you know, right next to each other.

[00:33:15] They're interchangeable.

[00:33:16] So if you know that and you understand how the system works, you really can take advantage

[00:33:21] of intentionally spending.

[00:33:24] I'm big on, you know, intentional living, you know, doing things, you know, that really

[00:33:31] match up to your life design.

[00:33:33] You say, hey, this is the way I want to live.

[00:33:35] This is the life I want to create.

[00:33:38] And if that's the outcome that I want, how do I how do I do that?

[00:33:43] What kind of intentional activities am I doing in my days, which mean my weeks, which mean my

[00:33:49] months and then years?

[00:33:51] This is one of those where I would love to kind of just back up for a moment and say, OK,

[00:33:58] to the to the expert, they know this.

[00:34:01] They've been doing it.

[00:34:02] Uh, they're well on their way and you're just kind of, you know, solidifying what they

[00:34:07] know, their knowledge base.

[00:34:08] They're like, Julian's on point.

[00:34:10] I, you know, he knows his stuff to, uh, you know, the, the lay person or the novice or

[00:34:16] somebody who's kind of interested and says, you know, yeah, I'm already spending money.

[00:34:20] I do travel.

[00:34:21] Uh, I would like to utilize this.

[00:34:24] Where does somebody start?

[00:34:26] You know, where, where would you say, let's, let's lay out your, your, your intentions

[00:34:32] first.

[00:34:33] And then let's go ahead and say, let's start with either signing up for a frequent flyer

[00:34:39] program, something very basic, you know?

[00:34:42] Uh, then let's look at maybe this credit card where you're going to want to spend some money

[00:34:47] and then you're going to log in and, and, and ultimately be able to use that to navigate

[00:34:52] points or trade points or, or transfer.

[00:34:55] Where do you get somebody to start and how would you describe that process to them?

[00:35:00] Yeah, that's a great way to look at from a, uh, a sense of intentional intentionality and

[00:35:05] saying, okay, how, how, what is my step process here?

[00:35:08] And especially now as we're, as we're moving into 2025, it is a really great time to make

[00:35:13] a plan like that to sort of, you know, take a fresh look at it all.

[00:35:16] Uh, the first thing I always say before you even consider travel rewards or credit card

[00:35:22] is you need to ask yourself, can I be disciplined with a credit card?

[00:35:26] And that is something you mentioned earlier, because the moment that you pay a dime of interest

[00:35:32] on your credit card bill, you've lost the game.

[00:35:35] The interest that the cards are charging way outweigh the value of the points or rewards

[00:35:40] or cashback or whatever you're getting by tenfold.

[00:35:43] So you must, must, must always one live within your means only by what you're, what you would

[00:35:52] can afford and use a credit card, not as a, as a chance to buy something extra or get

[00:35:58] something you wouldn't get.

[00:35:59] Otherwise only use it for what you would ordinarily pay for in cash or with a debit card.

[00:36:05] You're simply replacing the means by which you are buying it, not changing what you're

[00:36:11] buying.

[00:36:11] So that is step one, never pay interest on a credit card.

[00:36:15] You've lost the game if you do.

[00:36:17] And of course, whenever you do buy on that card, make sure you're paying that bill on time

[00:36:22] and in full every single month.

[00:36:24] Don't carry a balance.

[00:36:26] Don't pay it late, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:36:28] That's the only way that you can win this travel rewards game.

[00:36:31] So that's step one.

[00:36:33] And by the way, the banks are counting on you to not do that.

[00:36:36] That's how they make their money, right?

[00:36:38] By, by people who don't, aren't disciplined and buy over by them and carry a balance and

[00:36:42] then pay a lot of interest.

[00:36:43] That's how they're paying for all these rewards.

[00:36:45] So don't be that person.

[00:36:46] Be on the other side of that.

[00:36:47] Now, if you've said, okay.

[00:36:49] And by the way, it is also okay to say, I don't feel comfortable doing that.

[00:36:52] I'm going to stick to cash or I'm going to stick to my debit card.

[00:36:54] That's okay.

[00:36:55] There's nothing wrong with that.

[00:36:56] This isn't, don't trust yourself.

[00:36:57] Don't get yourself into trouble, right?

[00:36:59] Only do it if you feel that you can be disciplined about it.

[00:37:02] So let's say you say, okay, yeah, I feel like I can do this.

[00:37:04] Or I already use a credit card and I just want to know what my other options are.

[00:37:08] That's great.

[00:37:09] The next thing to do is to say to yourself, do I want to collect travel rewards or do I just

[00:37:16] want cash back?

[00:37:16] Obviously, if you're not a big traveler, don't get a travel credit card.

[00:37:19] Get a cash back credit card.

[00:37:22] If you don't think you're going to travel often, you might not bother with a travel credit

[00:37:27] card.

[00:37:28] Also, you can think about whether you want a lot of big fancy perks.

[00:37:32] A lot of these cars now come with big perks.

[00:37:34] They also come with big annual fees.

[00:37:36] As a beginner, I probably would shy away from that.

[00:37:39] I would start with something simple.

[00:37:41] You can always add later.

[00:37:43] Those cars will still be there in the future.

[00:37:45] What's a reasonable fee to you for travel cards?

[00:37:50] Beginner fee I last or $99 in less?

[00:37:52] Yeah.

[00:37:52] For a beginner travel card, I wouldn't go above $100 a year.

[00:37:55] Yeah.

[00:37:55] Yeah.

[00:37:56] Absolutely.

[00:37:57] And then the third thing is, so once you've said all this, is say, okay, yeah, I want a

[00:38:01] travel credit card.

[00:38:02] Oh, and sorry.

[00:38:03] Just to back up for cash back card, you should not be paying an annual fee at all.

[00:38:07] Cash back cards should be free.

[00:38:08] And then plenty of straight up 2% cash back on everything that you buy, credit cards with

[00:38:14] no annual fee.

[00:38:15] There's probably half a dozen of those now.

[00:38:17] So there's no reason to ever pay an annual fee on a cash back card unless you're getting

[00:38:20] some sort of huge perks.

[00:38:22] Travel cards are a little different because they do come with additional value.

[00:38:26] And then you'd say, okay, I want a beginner card.

[00:38:31] I want a first travel credit card.

[00:38:32] I would not go get an airline card.

[00:38:36] Okay?

[00:38:36] And there's a reason for that.

[00:38:38] And when I say an airline card, I mean an American Airlines credit card or a Delta Airlines

[00:38:43] credit card.

[00:38:44] I would not get an airline credit card.

[00:38:46] And the reason for that is that you are very much then tied to that airline, which of course

[00:38:51] is what they want.

[00:38:52] But unless you are absolutely stuck on an airline, in which case maybe the wave check bag of fees

[00:39:00] or something like that might be of use to you, I would keep yourself flexible.

[00:39:04] And you do that with cards that earn flexible points.

[00:39:08] So you should be looking at travel credit cards by Chase, by American Express, by Citi,

[00:39:16] by Capital One, by Wells Fargo that are not tied to a specific airline.

[00:39:22] If you want specifics, there's two cards that I always recommend as great beginner credit

[00:39:27] cards.

[00:39:28] The first one I mentioned a little earlier, the Chase Sapphire Preferred.

[00:39:31] It's $95 a year.

[00:39:33] It earns points that you can redeem directly with Chase at $1.25 a piece.

[00:39:38] So it's very simple if you want to use your points.

[00:39:41] It also transfers to, I think it's about 14 different airline and hotel partners.

[00:39:46] United is a big one.

[00:39:47] Southwest, Hyatt Hotels is another big one from them.

[00:39:52] So that's a great beginner one.

[00:39:54] The other one is the Capital One Venture Card, which I'm sure you've seen ubiquitously on TV

[00:40:00] with Jennifer Garner and Samuel Jackson.

[00:40:03] It is a really good starter credit card.

[00:40:06] Also $95 a year.

[00:40:08] Also, you can redeem the beauty of that card, and they always advertise it, is you earn two

[00:40:13] miles for every dollar you spend.

[00:40:16] So when you redeem them, you don't necessarily get that extra travel value because you're getting

[00:40:20] that extra value when you earn it.

[00:40:21] But the beauty of that one is you can literally redeem your miles for any travel purchase you

[00:40:26] make on the card.

[00:40:27] And it's very simple.

[00:40:28] And you simply literally erase the charge with your miles.

[00:40:32] And they also have their transfer partners as well.

[00:40:34] Those are the two places I would start.

[00:40:37] So that's great.

[00:40:38] I wanted to find out you're kind of very well suited to answer this question.

[00:40:43] Do they jack up the price?

[00:40:45] So when they say, hey, the value is, you know, two to one, we're going to give that to you.

[00:40:52] Do they inflate the price in terms of how much it's going to cost through their site so

[00:40:59] it ends up evening out?

[00:41:00] Or do they truly give you that value?

[00:41:02] So, yeah, no, they so with Capital One, you don't have to buy it through their site.

[00:41:07] It's literally any travel purchase that you make pretty much.

[00:41:10] And it's a fairly broad definition of travel with the card.

[00:41:13] So in other words, if you buy a ticket directly with American, you can use your miles to offset.

[00:41:19] So it seems like you say, well, geez, that seems like, yeah, outsized value compared to everyone

[00:41:24] else.

[00:41:24] But again, the reason is, is that like you and I talked about earlier, if you use the

[00:41:29] chase card, you're going to get 1.25 cents point on the other side with Capital One Miles.

[00:41:33] You're just getting one cent when you do it that way.

[00:41:36] So it's really just where in the spectrum is the value placed?

[00:41:40] Is it on the earning side?

[00:41:41] Is it on the redemption side?

[00:41:43] And in both cases, where you're going to get the most value is like we talked about through

[00:41:48] those transfer partners.

[00:41:49] But you do have to be willing to put in some time and effort to find those deals.

[00:41:54] Nice.

[00:41:55] Okay.

[00:41:55] That that so that's a that it's a perfect place to start because I think it really simplifies

[00:42:01] the fact that, hey, you can start with, you know, one or two cards.

[00:42:06] Can you transfer from these cards then to airline?

[00:42:11] You might have already said it, but I might have missed this part of where you can say,

[00:42:15] okay, I'm spending through Capital One.

[00:42:19] I'm flying on Alaska or I'm flying on American.

[00:42:24] Do I transfer those points over to the carrier themself and that gives me any extra value?

[00:42:31] Or do I always book through their site and I'm booking through whatever Capital One's

[00:42:38] travel site looks like?

[00:42:39] And that's the only way that I should be doing it.

[00:42:42] Yeah, you'll potentially get the most value with the transfers.

[00:42:47] But there's a couple of things to remember about the transfers.

[00:42:50] One is, like I said, you do have to do some research and really find the best deals that

[00:42:54] way because not every flight is going to have a great deal.

[00:42:57] And again, that's where a tool like PointsPath comes into handy because it tells you what's

[00:43:01] the great deals.

[00:43:01] Yeah, that's the outline.

[00:43:02] You can start with that.

[00:43:04] Right.

[00:43:04] And then start working with your points to attain what you're seeing.

[00:43:09] That's right.

[00:43:10] That's right.

[00:43:11] That's another way to look at it exactly is to say, OK, this is what I need.

[00:43:15] Keep in mind, you know, points values change.

[00:43:17] They change for flight.

[00:43:18] They've changed per day.

[00:43:19] And when you get closer to departure, just like cash fares, they go up.

[00:43:22] So keep that in mind.

[00:43:23] The other thing, though, about transferring is not every bank transfers to every airline.

[00:43:29] They all have their set of exclusive partners, some of which crossover, but not all of it.

[00:43:34] So if you think United is somewhere that you're going to want to be transferring to regularly,

[00:43:39] then you're going to want to go with the Chase card because Chase is the only one that

[00:43:43] transfers to United.

[00:43:45] But at the end of the day, the way you're going to find the easiest way to book is through

[00:43:49] the bank site.

[00:43:50] You'll get a little less value than if you transfer through the points, but it's fast.

[00:43:55] It's easy.

[00:43:56] You just go.

[00:43:56] You can book any flight, any hotel through the bank generally, and you don't have to

[00:44:00] worry about doing all the research.

[00:44:02] So and time is look.

[00:44:04] Time is valuable.

[00:44:05] Time is a resource.

[00:44:06] So if that's something that you're looking for, then just go to the bank and book it through

[00:44:09] Chase or Capital One and do it that way.

[00:44:11] Or with Capital One, just book it direct and then use the purchase ratio to wipe off the

[00:44:16] charge.

[00:44:17] So this is this is great.

[00:44:19] I think, you know, one of my good friends that, you know, he's a pretty high level attorney

[00:44:25] here in Southern California and partner within a firm.

[00:44:29] One of his hobbies, I think it's because his analytical nature is he he opens cards.

[00:44:34] He spends the minimum.

[00:44:36] He gets these introductory points.

[00:44:39] He makes sure that those those cards that he's going after transfer or are affiliate programs

[00:44:45] through other cards and programs that he has.

[00:44:48] And he's really looking to consistently merge these into to, you know, big resourceful spending

[00:44:56] opportunities where he can travel.

[00:44:58] He's got two daughters where he can travel to cool places in like a business class, which

[00:45:03] would be, you know, ungodly expensive.

[00:45:07] You know, sometimes ten thousand dollars a ticket to go internationally.

[00:45:12] They're they're doing it, you know, because he's been almost a gaming the system, just really

[00:45:17] taking advantage of finding those partner programs as he best described it to me.

[00:45:22] And he said it's really about, you know, not having ten different siloed five thousand

[00:45:29] points of where that's worthless.

[00:45:31] I can't even spend it.

[00:45:32] I've got to be able to get these together.

[00:45:34] And so you find those partner programs.

[00:45:37] Tell me a little bit about, you know, with the points path, where do you take a company

[00:45:44] like this in terms of really this space is is complex, but algorithms change?

[00:45:52] You know, there's there's one thing that's consistent and there's and it's variance and

[00:45:58] variables, but the same principles apply in terms of the value that this plays to the

[00:46:08] airlines, to the hotels and to the credit card companies.

[00:46:12] Where do you want to take points path?

[00:46:14] How does it evolve as an organization and what are you working on in the next 12 months?

[00:46:18] Maybe it's just even perfecting the product and staying, you know, right in the lane that

[00:46:22] you're in.

[00:46:22] But where are you going with it?

[00:46:24] Yeah, it's good.

[00:46:25] It's a great question, because as as we are recording this, we literally just launched

[00:46:30] our first paid subscription product.

[00:46:34] And by the way, this is a good chance for me to mention that the basic points path extension

[00:46:38] that we've been talking about is free.

[00:46:40] You don't have to pay anything to use it.

[00:46:42] But we are we just launched points path pro, which is a monthly subscription product at

[00:46:48] $7.99 a month or $79.99 a year.

[00:46:52] And for that, you get a bunch of extra features.

[00:46:55] First of all, the free extension just gives you the US programs.

[00:46:59] You'll get international coverage, but you only get American miles, Delta miles, United

[00:47:05] miles, that sort of thing.

[00:47:07] With the pro, you get all of the international programs as well.

[00:47:10] You get the Air Canada's, you get the Virgin Atlantic's, you get the British Airways, that

[00:47:14] sort of thing.

[00:47:15] So you get a much more broad set of airlines.

[00:47:17] And again, like we talked about, when it comes to those flexible bank points, you can transfer

[00:47:22] to those international programs.

[00:47:24] And that's really where you can find some amazing values if you're looking to travel

[00:47:28] overseas and business class and that sort of thing.

[00:47:31] So that comes in our pro program.

[00:47:33] But so does a couple of extra advanced features.

[00:47:36] One of which is our seven day calendar.

[00:47:38] When you do a search in Google Flights with points path, we, with the pro user gets a little

[00:47:43] button that says points calendar, you click on it and you see for the three days before

[00:47:47] and the three days after all the best points prices available across all of our airlines.

[00:47:52] So you can find what is the best deal if you're flexible, if you have some flexible travel

[00:47:57] plans.

[00:47:57] And then our really, our most popular feature in the pro is price tracking.

[00:48:01] As I mentioned, these points prices on flights go up and down constantly.

[00:48:06] Now they're not locked like they used to be.

[00:48:08] It used to be, there was a chart and you either, they either had it or they had availability

[00:48:13] on a flight or they didn't.

[00:48:14] And you knew what the price would be if they did.

[00:48:16] That doesn't, that's not how it works anymore.

[00:48:18] The airlines now, everything is dynamic.

[00:48:20] The price has changed based day to day, minute to minute, sometimes just like the cash fares.

[00:48:25] So with points path pro, you can choose any flight with points in Google flights.

[00:48:31] Say, Hey, track this for me.

[00:48:33] Let me know when it goes up and down.

[00:48:35] We will track it for you.

[00:48:36] We'll check it multiple times a day.

[00:48:38] Every time it changes, we'll send you an email and say, Hey, this went up, this went down.

[00:48:42] The really great news there is that most U S airlines now allow you to cancel points

[00:48:48] bookings for free and get the miles back.

[00:48:51] A lot of those cancellation fees went away in the pandemic.

[00:48:54] So what I always recommend is if you're looking to book with points, go ahead, find the flight

[00:48:59] you want, book it with your points or miles, track the price.

[00:49:02] And if it goes down, go back in, cancel your first booking, get the points back and rebook.

[00:49:07] Usually those points come back instantaneously and you can do it all in about five minutes.

[00:49:11] I just did myself on a Delta flight.

[00:49:13] I had booked it at one price points path.

[00:49:15] Hang me a couple of days later.

[00:49:17] Hey, it went down.

[00:49:18] Took me about five minutes to sit down, cancel, rebook.

[00:49:21] It's a great way.

[00:49:21] And I saved 12,000 miles just by, just by having that.

[00:49:25] That's super slick.

[00:49:26] I like that a lot.

[00:49:27] I wasn't sure, you know, we've always traveled quite a bit for our kids sports programs.

[00:49:33] Plus, you know, just leisurely, we really enjoy both domestic and international travel.

[00:49:38] It's been great just to kind of expand our worldview and, and, you know, really see what

[00:49:45] other cultures are out there and, and, uh, and, and get our kids into that too, to show

[00:49:49] them that like the little bubble that we've created is not really real as much as it is

[00:49:55] real for us, but there's a whole nother world and there's a whole nother, uh, uh, way that,

[00:50:00] that people engage and behave.

[00:50:02] And, uh, you know, I think that's why travel is so important.

[00:50:06] Um, one of the things that, that I had subscribed to years ago, which has been really amazing.

[00:50:11] Uh, it's called TripIt.

[00:50:12] I use TripIt pro, um, and I, and, and, and I always think the great freemium models, uh,

[00:50:20] you know, are fantastic is great intro for people who aren't really that serious, but

[00:50:25] still want to take advantage.

[00:50:26] And I think like points path, having a freemium model is always important.

[00:50:30] Um, I didn't know how much I'd love TripIt pro, you know, until it started, you know, I think

[00:50:37] this is probably where you're going with points path is once you're paying the new features

[00:50:41] and new releases that come out, you know, continue to kind of make my life a little bit,

[00:50:46] uh, uh, easier.

[00:50:48] And when I go back and look at all the places we've explored TripIt has it all in one place.

[00:50:53] I look at it, it's telling me the hotels I stayed at and the dinners I went to and everything

[00:50:59] integrated into my email and automatically, uh, uh, synchronizing.

[00:51:02] And I, I think it's great that you're coming out with something paid.

[00:51:05] It really incentivizes you as a, as a, uh, CEO to, to say, Hey, let's keep pouring into

[00:51:11] the company, you know, and keep coming out with new features.

[00:51:14] Uh, because this travel space is, is, um, well, I mean, we hear it.

[00:51:19] People want experiences in life.

[00:51:22] Um, we're, we're getting, we've been such a materialistic society for so long.

[00:51:28] And obviously consumerism isn't dead.

[00:51:31] I was at the mall and couldn't find a parking spot for 30 minutes yesterday.

[00:51:34] Um, so people are still spending, but a lot of people, especially with social media and

[00:51:41] being able to share experiences digitally, um, people are going to continue to travel and

[00:51:45] I'm sure points path is going to continue to evolve and, uh, uh, cool to be a paying customers.

[00:51:51] I certainly will be one of them.

[00:51:52] So.

[00:51:53] Yeah, that's, uh, that's exactly it though, right?

[00:51:55] You, you, you nailed it.

[00:51:56] Is that's exactly our intention is to continue to improve the product and especially on the

[00:52:00] paid side and offer more features.

[00:52:02] One of the things that we've talked about doing, uh, that people say, well, you know, I can

[00:52:06] never keep track of what miles I have, like how many miles do I have and where I have them

[00:52:10] are using since we are a browser extension to be able to track those for you, to be able

[00:52:15] to see, you know, say, Oh, you know, last time you logged into Delta, here's how many miles

[00:52:19] you had and here was your late status and whatever it might be.

[00:52:22] And just put them all together on a dashboard so you can just look at them in one glance.

[00:52:26] We even send you emails to say, Hey, you know, these are going to expire here soon or whatever

[00:52:30] it might be.

[00:52:31] Uh, so, you know, don't forget, here's five ways that you could use them to keep them alive

[00:52:35] or, or, or, or extend the expiration date.

[00:52:37] That's something that we've talked about having as, as a pro feature.

[00:52:40] I think that's really cool.

[00:52:41] One of the things that back in the day before Alaska put, uh, uh, age restriction on their

[00:52:49] mileage programs, my daughter, we signed her up to get miles when she was one.

[00:52:54] And now I went, I went to try to do it years later with my son and it was like, Oh no, he

[00:52:58] had to be, I think 13 or 14 or something like that.

[00:53:01] Like that.

[00:53:01] Yeah.

[00:53:02] But it didn't used to be that way.

[00:53:03] So she'd been selecting all these miles.

[00:53:05] I forgot.

[00:53:05] And every time we took a trip and we put in her frequent flyer miles and, you know, it

[00:53:11] was just like having a spot there to where you, you don't forget.

[00:53:16] And there's nothing worse than having a, you know, a gift card that expires, you're like,

[00:53:22] and that's what they count on.

[00:53:24] Right.

[00:53:24] Like the industry of gift cards is people buy it, they gift it.

[00:53:29] And I think only like 60% or get used as a, yeah, actually get turned back in.

[00:53:35] Yeah.

[00:53:35] There's a lot of breakage.

[00:53:37] Yeah.

[00:53:37] Yeah.

[00:53:38] There's a ton.

[00:53:39] Yeah.

[00:53:39] Well, we like that idea.

[00:53:40] Yeah.

[00:53:40] The good news is that with airlines, as I said, the model has changed over the years

[00:53:45] and now they do want you to use their miles.

[00:53:47] Yeah.

[00:53:47] Which is great.

[00:53:48] A number of them have done away with expiration dates.

[00:53:50] Not all of them though.

[00:53:51] Americans still expires their miles when you don't use them.

[00:53:54] But yeah, it also, like I said, comes down to people just forget.

[00:53:58] Like you said, like you've got a daughter who's been collecting miles since she's

[00:54:01] one.

[00:54:02] And you know, you, you don't know that's totally off the top of your

[00:54:05] head.

[00:54:05] How many miles are sitting there or whatever to have that all in one place and

[00:54:09] with reminders.

[00:54:10] And then of course the, the real icing on the cake, the real cherry on top would

[00:54:13] be if in points path, when you're searching, if we know how many miles you have for us

[00:54:17] to be able to say, Hey, here are the flights you can afford.

[00:54:20] Here are the flights you have the miles for that you don't need to, you know, versus

[00:54:24] showing you all of them.

[00:54:25] We'd still show you all, but we'd flag the ones you could actually afford, which

[00:54:29] even the airlines don't do that, which I don't understand.

[00:54:31] If they're, if you're searching their site, why wouldn't they tell you which flights you

[00:54:35] could actually have the miles for?

[00:54:37] I don't know, but I think it would be a great feature for us to do.

[00:54:40] That's cool.

[00:54:41] Julian, I, I so appreciate you kind of, again, you know, this, what I put in the intro of

[00:54:47] really demystifying this space.

[00:54:49] It is a, uh, it can be real complex and confusing space for, for, for many people, but having,

[00:54:57] you know, companies like yours that you've created points path, you know, having a spot

[00:55:01] to where you can start, you can see things, you can start to be intentional with the way

[00:55:06] your, your, your dollars are, you know, being exchanged for something since you're going to

[00:55:11] spend anyways.

[00:55:12] Um, and the fact that you're a believer in, you know, financial accountability, making

[00:55:19] sure you're putting that disclaimer out there.

[00:55:20] Uh, I'm all about financial freedom.

[00:55:23] I'm all about creating, you know, more space for you to say no to things.

[00:55:28] Uh, so you can have a lot more, uh, uh, uh, freedom to do exactly what you did, which is

[00:55:35] pivot in your professional career.

[00:55:37] Uh, mortgage kids, debt, things like this, you know, create, uh, not a lot of room for

[00:55:45] people to say no or yes, or, you know, engage and travel is one of those luxuries that if

[00:55:52] you can create financial freedoms and space in your life, you really get a chance to unlock

[00:55:56] the world and, and have a lot more fun in, in, uh, the area that, that you guys obviously

[00:56:01] specialize in.

[00:56:02] Yep.

[00:56:03] Couldn't have said it better myself.

[00:56:04] I completely agree with all of that.

[00:56:06] And yeah, it's a, you know, points and miles, I like to say, give you the opportunity to

[00:56:10] go places that you couldn't afford to maybe go otherwise.

[00:56:13] And in ways that you couldn't be able to afford to go like that business, those business class

[00:56:18] flights and that sort of thing.

[00:56:19] Uh, you know, it, it, it, it's frankly a taste of life that, you know, you probably

[00:56:25] wouldn't spend the money on because you can't justify it and you probably shouldn't, but

[00:56:29] you can spend the points cause they were free.

[00:56:31] They got them when you were earning them with your credit card or whatever, buying other

[00:56:34] things.

[00:56:35] Uh, as long as you're disciplined about what you're buying and keeping your financial life

[00:56:39] in order.

[00:56:40] Uh, you know, I always say, if you can do that, if you're not using some sort of credit card

[00:56:44] that earns rewards, I think you're leaving money on the table.

[00:56:48] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:56:50] Um, one thing I just want to part with before, you know, I kind of direct, uh, people to,

[00:56:55] to go find you and sign up for points path and at least get in that freemium model of

[00:56:59] where, you know, you're starting to engage is, you know, what gets you up in the morning?

[00:57:05] You know, why do you do what you do?

[00:57:07] And I'm sure that's changed over the years, but, but where, where are you getting your drive

[00:57:12] these days and where you're, where's your passion stemming from?

[00:57:15] Yeah, I, I, I just love it.

[00:57:17] Listen, when people email me all the time, points path users, uh, or even people who

[00:57:22] aren't users who just saw me, you know, on a podcast like this and they say, uh, you

[00:57:26] know, Hey, I really, you said this, or I found this in points path and I was able to take

[00:57:31] a trip that I couldn't have done otherwise.

[00:57:34] Or I was a, I went to, I booked these tickets to, I constantly get emails and say, Hey, I

[00:57:39] used points path and book these tickets to Milan or wherever it might be.

[00:57:43] Uh, thank you.

[00:57:44] Uh, that's what gets me up in the morning is people is helping people being able to use

[00:57:49] the system and get value from it.

[00:57:52] Uh, you know, like I said, there are lots of people out there using the system wrong and

[00:57:56] not getting value from it and paying interest and doing things that, that, you know, make

[00:58:00] the banks money.

[00:58:01] But there is a flip side to that, that there is value in the system.

[00:58:04] If you know how to use it or you have tools that help you use it.

[00:58:09] And that's what gives me up the morning.

[00:58:10] I love waking up of working on points path.

[00:58:13] I love helping people.

[00:58:15] I love trying to figure out new ways to help people with the product, uh, or maybe with

[00:58:19] future products that we might have, uh, just letting getting, giving people the opportunity

[00:58:24] to travel and have experiences that they wouldn't have otherwise, I think is pretty

[00:58:29] revolutionary.

[00:58:30] That's pretty, that, that, that's well said.

[00:58:33] And when you look at, uh, uh, asking, you know, a question of yourself, you know, what's

[00:58:40] a question you believe more people should ask themselves regularly?

[00:58:44] Uh, you mean in life in general or travel in life, in life?

[00:58:49] What do you think people should be asking themselves on a regular basis?

[00:58:52] Am I, am I doing something that makes me happy?

[00:58:55] Am I doing something that I'm passionate about?

[00:58:58] Uh, and look, I understand that everything you do every day is not going to be something

[00:59:02] that you're happy or passionate about.

[00:59:04] We all have our chores.

[00:59:05] We all have our obligations.

[00:59:06] We all have our responsibilities.

[00:59:07] But as a whole, stepping back and looking at your life and saying, am I doing something

[00:59:12] that I'm going to be proud of at the end, at the end?

[00:59:15] Uh, that's something that made me happy, that made me passionate.

[00:59:18] Uh, that's the question everyone should be asking themselves.

[00:59:21] I love that.

[00:59:22] And my final question is what, what's a, what's a moment or a failure at that time?

[00:59:29] What seemed like a failure, uh, in your life that really became a pivotal moment for you

[00:59:36] as a setup.

[00:59:37] So kind of the setback became a setup, um, in your life.

[00:59:41] Uh, is there, is there a moment or a period in life that you could point to?

[00:59:45] Uh, you know, I don't, uh, uh, it's interesting because I would actually say that's always

[00:59:51] happening.

[00:59:51] That's always, uh, something that's going on every day, every week.

[00:59:55] And, and I know when you say a setback, obviously I don't mean that every day, everything is falling

[00:59:59] apart, but that there's always that challenge of something doesn't go the way that I expected

[01:00:06] or wanted it to go.

[01:00:07] And I need to step back and say, all right, well, if I couldn't get through that way,

[01:00:11] can I get through this way?

[01:00:12] Can I go there?

[01:00:13] Or can, or do I, or is this the wrong path for me?

[01:00:16] Uh, I have often found that the universe will sort of lead me where I'm supposed to go.

[01:00:21] Uh, if I just let it, I kind of got to get out.

[01:00:23] I got to do the work.

[01:00:24] I'm not saying don't do the work.

[01:00:25] Just don't just sit back and say, ah, the universe will do it.

[01:00:28] The universe won't do the work, but you still have to do the work, but the universe will

[01:00:32] kind of lead you where you're supposed to go.

[01:00:34] And I have actually found that when I let it, and I, especially if I'm trying to do something

[01:00:40] that's not working, not working, not working, and I keep getting pushed to different

[01:00:43] direction, usually I'm supposed to go in that direction.

[01:00:45] And I may think I don't want to go in that direction, but usually if I finally give up

[01:00:50] and go in that direction, it gets me somewhere that was, that was worth going.

[01:00:54] Uh, so sorry.

[01:00:55] I know that's not quite the answer to the question you asked, but I, I, I think it's, uh, hopefully

[01:01:01] it speaks to the sort of same, uh, same genre, if you will.

[01:01:05] Well said.

[01:01:05] Actually, I think it's, it's, uh, uh, it's perfect and it stitches in nicely for me to

[01:01:11] understand why you've been so successful in life, uh, in different ventures and avenues

[01:01:16] and, and now creating, uh, a company that a lot of consumers are going to, you know, be

[01:01:21] able to continue to take advantage of.

[01:01:22] Uh, I really appreciate your time, Julian.

[01:01:25] When, uh, the listener is trying to connect with you, where do you want them to go?

[01:01:31] Where would you steer them?

[01:01:32] And, uh, obviously we'll put links in the show notes, but, uh, for anybody listening,

[01:01:36] where, where should they go to find you?

[01:01:37] Yeah.

[01:01:38] So you can find me first of all, obviously you can find us at points path.com point points,

[01:01:43] P A T H.com.

[01:01:44] Uh, the extension is also right in the Google web store.

[01:01:47] If you want to get it there, that, that works too.

[01:01:49] If you want to reach out to me directly, uh, I am on, uh, most of the social media, Instagram,

[01:01:54] Julian keel and, or, or points path, uh, is Twitter, Julian keel or, uh, points underscore

[01:02:00] path.

[01:02:00] I think it is.

[01:02:01] Um, I, I don't really tick tock, but, uh, I don't, don't have enough time.

[01:02:06] Uh, but also if you want to drop me a line, uh, Julian at points path.com Julian, J U L I A N

[01:02:12] at points path.com.

[01:02:14] I read all the messages that come in.

[01:02:16] Uh, I'd love to hear from you.

[01:02:17] Love it.

[01:02:18] I appreciate your time, Julian.

[01:02:20] And looking forward to, uh, continuing our friendship offline.

[01:02:22] Thank you for having me on Sean.

[01:02:24] I had a great time.